March 7, 2025

“It takes work. We, as lawyers, need to talk more about therapy and mindset, because lawyering is more than knowing how to question a witness or structure an opening. To be more effective, you have to understand who you really are and get control of your mindset. That’s what I love about H2H. If we’re going to change the culture, we have to challenge ourselves to break free of that old-school path and really do the deep work, which makes us better advocates for our clients.”

– Sari de la Motte

Podcast Transcript

Sari de la Motte: Alrighty, well, welcome everyone to another episode of From Hostage to Hero. I’m Sari de la Motte, the Attorney Whisperer, and I’m also joined today by three women that I totally love and admire and am fangirling a little bit about. We are here with Coach Siria Gutierrez, who is a coach in the H2H world, Coach Jody, also a coach in the H2H world, and Sara Williams, who we hope will eventually become a coach in the H2H world—we were planning on coaching her.

Just to give you a little bit of a background of how the four of us got together today: we have something every week in the H2H Crew—if you’re not in the Crew, go to sariswears.com and either sign up if it’s open or get on the waitlist—and Jody will post in there every Friday or Saturday, sometime around the weekend, a Reflect and Celebrate post. She posted something, and it got a discussion going about the idea of what freedom really is. Then we all got excited about it and thought we needed a podcast about it, and here we are.

So I’m going to welcome all of you. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for being here. Jody, why don’t you tell me: you said in the video you mentioned something Sara Williams said that really struck you. Where did you hear that quote, and what was it in reference to?

Coach Jody: Well, I’m a fangirl for Sara Williams, so she puts out her own videos and content to help encourage trial attorneys—especially women trial attorneys—on our career trajectories. One of the posts she had made (and I honestly don’t remember exactly which one) said,

“Freedom is understanding that you cannot control how other people perceive you.”

That particular week, I was doing my reflection—I had a hard week, a hard time in court, and it had to do with how I was being perceived, which in the moment made me spiral: “How do they not see my intentions? How do they not see how I’m showing up? How do they not see my integrity?” This quote helped reframe how I was looking at it, which is, I was trying to control what other people were seeing in me instead of standing in my own power and controlling what I was projecting out. So it was just something that was a touchstone for me, among other things, to get through that particular difficulty at the time.

Sari de la Motte: Yeah. Sara, do you remember that video? I’m not sure if I saw it. I saw it the other day—I got one of those top badges, like, “You are a top Sara Williams fan,” and it asked if I wanted to accept my badge. I’m like, “Oh, hell yeah, I want my Sara Williams badge!” So I’m sure I saw it. But if not, I’m so embarrassed that I didn’t. Do you remember that, and what were you talking about?

Sara Williams: So it wasn’t a video—it was a post about emails and the tone of emails. It was the one where I said, “I wish I could get back all the time I’ve spent reviewing emails because I was worried about the tone and someone complaining about the tone,” and I’ve realized now I can’t control how you’re going to perceive me.

You’re going to perceive my tone however you’re going to perceive it.

For me, I was cleaning out my inbox—I spent three years managing the firm, so I had so many drafts of emails that I had revised and sent to people, asking, “Do you think this is going to make anyone upset?”

When I started managing, I’m very direct. If it’s a procedural issue, then I’m just going to outline what the procedure is, and it was during a time when we were really growing, so I was implementing a lot of new procedures. I would always get these complaints about the tone of my emails. So when I read them, I was like, “I don’t do it anymore,” but it made me go back to that space where I was just so concerned about how someone would perceive and read the tone of an email. That’s where it came from.

Sari de la Motte: Well, and I want to just pause here and ask the women here: do we think this is something that men slave over when crafting an email, for example?

Coach Siria Gutierrez: I’m going to jump in and say, no, I don’t think it’s something our male colleagues deal with as much. Every now and then, my partner Matt will ask me to look at something, but literally maybe once every two or three years, if it’s something very professional, and it’s never been about tone.

Sari de la Motte: Yeah, I think men absolutely do have concerns about how they’re perceived, but it shows up in a very different way. Sara, you were going to say something?

Sara Williams: Yeah, I think the issue is our society is not comfortable with strong women. I just think—full stop. So what I have had to learn is, that’s not my problem. I know what my intentions are. I know where, like Jody said, my integrity is. I know that I took a pay cut to take on that job, to help grow our firm and make it safe and a better place. I know that what I was doing was the right thing.

So this idea that we take on so much stress related to worrying about how others will perceive us—because we think we can control it—and the reality is, when I looked at those emails, they were so vanilla. The fact is, people decided how to perceive that email as soon as they read it. There was nothing I could have done to have controlled their perception.

Sari de la Motte: That’s exactly right. Because we can’t see what lens they’re reading it through, right?

Sara Williams: Yes, they decided it. Right.

Sari de la Motte: Exactly. That reminds me: in that post, you said, “I wonder if there’s something inherent in what we do as trial attorneys that causes us to struggle more in this area than maybe some other people.” So who wants to take that up? Do you think trial attorneys struggle with this more, and why?

Coach Jody: I know that I hopped in on that conversation, because I feel like as trial attorneys—unlike maybe a lot of other professions—we are actually graded, if you will, on our win-loss ratio. We go into a case with an outcome in mind, which is to win, whether that’s settlement or judgment, or to make our clients be in a better position than they were before. And I know I’ll have this conversation with my husband or kids: at the end of the day, I’m literally branded as a winner or a loser. I got those messages very early on in my career, and I don’t think I realized, until I started doing more self-reflection and mindset work—particularly through H2H—that I was carrying it as baggage. I was letting the outcome or the message of “You are a winner or you are a loser,” depending on how the outcome of a case or a motion or a hearing or a deposition went, define me.

So I do think we worry as trial attorneys about what other people think of us because we want jurors to like us. We want them to feel that, because of that relationship with us, they’ll go in our favor. We want the judge to like us. We want a witness to be comfortable enough to give honest testimony, because we’re coming across with integrity in the deposition. I do think it impacts wanting to be liked because we believe that will give us more control over the outcome.

Sari de la Motte: Right. And I would like to position or point out that I don’t actually think you want the jury to like you; what you really want is to win so that your colleagues will like you and that you will like you. Because the win represents the feeling we think we’re going to have. We’re never going to see that jury again. So maybe in the moment we want them to like us, but I think the bigger “like” is if I win this thing—or more importantly, if I lose this thing—then my people won’t like me, including myself.

Sara Williams: That’s right. I think from the moment you start practicing—even in law school—our self-worth is tied to our outcomes and our case outcomes, right? And there’s so much about our cases that we cannot control. But because our culture, especially in litigation, is based on “How many cases have you won? How many cases have you tried? What’s your largest verdict?”—Alex told me a couple weeks ago that I needed another eight-figure verdict, and I was like, “But who says I need another one? I have one. Some lawyers go their entire careers without an eight-figure verdict.” Two years ago, I would’ve freaked out and started trying to figure out how to somehow manufacture that. Now, I said, “Man, if I never get another one, I’m happy with the result I got for my client.” If that had not been an eight-figure verdict, I did the best I could with that case.

I think as a legal society, we have to take ownership of that culture, which is really harmful, and it’s resulting in higher rates of depression and anxiety because we tie our self-worth to something we really don’t have control over.

Sari de la Motte: Yeah. I want to come back to that, but let me get Siria’s voice in the mix here. Siria, you were saying the media also plays into that culture?

Coach Siria Gutierrez: Yeah, I think the way you end up coming into law school—if you don’t necessarily know a lawyer, you go against these archetypes from the media. Better Call Saul for PI attorneys, Law & Order for criminal attorneys. You’re dealing with these issues. On top of that, if you’re a PI attorney, you have to deal with being called an ambulance chaser. We talk a lot in H2H about being on the side of right, but it doesn’t feel like that because you still get those lawyer jokes wherever you go.

Sari de la Motte: Societally, you guys are at the bottom of the lawyer barrel, right? We don’t like lawyers, and oh my gosh, plaintiff attorneys or personal injury? No way. So this brings up what we were talking about before we started recording, about messages many of you—attorneys in general, male or female—have heard and carried with them, feeding this culture. What are some of the messages you all heard before or during law school or once you started practicing, that you think are harmful and that we need to get rid of?

Coach Siria Gutierrez: That’s such a great question. One I’m thinking of is when I was a law clerk, if there was somebody who had more typos than normal—and we live in a very busy society, especially as plaintiff attorneys, doing so much work—but if you even had one little typo as a law clerk, I was told, “We’re not necessarily going to pay as much attention to that brief because there are three T’s in ‘attorney,’” for example.

There’s this idea that you have to be perfect, because everyone is judging you on that perfection.

Sari de la Motte: You have to be perfect. Right. What else?

Coach Jody: For me, I remember early in my career, applying for a job at a very well-respected firm. In the interview, the interviewer said, “If you work here, losing is not an option.” That had a profound effect on me. I was maybe a two- or three-year lawyer, and I actually thought, “Oh, that’s what good lawyers look like—good lawyers don’t lose. You don’t lose a motion, you don’t lose a motion for summary judgment, you score all your points in a deposition, and if you go to trial, you absolutely win. Losing is not an option.” For me, that was a voice in my head that led to a lot of overwork—leave no stone unturned. While that can be a superpower, and it has served me well to be detail-oriented, it was produced by anxiety and fear, not a sense that “When I do this, I feel the most prepared,” or “When I do this, I feel the most confident.” There’s a big difference there.

Sara Williams: Right. I think for me, the message was more that winning in this world allows you to fit in. As a Black female lawyer practicing in Alabama, I attended the whitest private law school in the country. When I started on trial team and started doing trial competitions, it was like, “Oh, she can win this thing,” so I was in the club. For me, it’s a constant sense of “In order to stay in the club, I have to keep hustling and trying harder and winning more.” I don’t think it was explicit; it was more implicit. I think it’s what we reward, right? Those are the people who get the speaking gigs, who do all the things. So the big message is I’ve got to prove my worth. For me, it’s “I have to prove that I’m worthy enough to be here with these white men,” or “I have to prove that I’m worthy by winning.” That’s the big one—winning is the ultimate, right?

Sari de la Motte: Right. So why do you think it’s not about winning? Or have you gotten to that place, where you recognize it’s not about the eight-figure win or winning in general?

Coach Jody: Oh, that’s hard to talk about. I’d frame it differently: my definition of winning or success changed. The metrics by which I judge my worth changed. That’s made me show up in a way that’s letting me have more successes because I got out of my own head and my own way. For me, the reframe was, “I control the way I show up,” so I want to stand in my power, act with integrity, be armed with the law and the facts, be bonded with and connected to my client, empower my trial team. Then, when I do that, I can be in the moment and release the outcome. Of course I want to win, but I don’t need to win to come out the other side still proud of my work.

Sari de la Motte: Yes. Who else?

Sara Williams: I would agree with that. I still struggle. I’m highly competitive. I still struggle with losing, but I’ve reframed what is a win. I don’t feel as bad—someone might say, “You should’ve just tried that case because you need the trial,” but it’s not about me. It’s about getting the best result for my client, ensuring that that result has the least amount of risk. Because I have plenty of cases; they have one case. Taking myself and what I need to feed my self-worth out of the equation has allowed me to be more objective about evaluating a case’s value and advising my client on the best options. I think that’s one of the big differences.

Sari de la Motte: Right. People might say, “Well, that’s all nice, Sari, but we’re talking about a jury. I have to get them to like me because I have to win.” Or, “I have to do all these things.” But that’s what’s so different about H2H: we say you really don’t. Because once you do that—once you go into “I need them to like me”—you’re making the case about you and how you’re looking, instead of focusing the jury on what matters, which is what your case is about, and being the voice for that case, showing up authentically. Right?

Sara Williams: Right, because they can sniff out a fake, right?

Sari de la Motte: Yes, 100%.

Sara Williams: I tried a case with these lawyers when I was on the dark side who faked a Southern accent. Then, in the hallway, they got caught. This was in a case they should’ve won, but the jury just never believed them. They said, “I didn’t trust you. If I can’t trust you to speak to me authentically, how can I trust what you’re saying?” Right?

Sari de la Motte: Right. So let’s go back to that quote: “Freedom is understanding you can’t control how people perceive you.” Is it that people don’t understand that, or is it more about the surrender to that truth? Where do you think the difficulty lies?

Coach Siria Gutierrez: I think it’s more of an acceptance issue, because when I had my paradigm shift of realizing that lawyering is a skill set, not my identity, those wins and losses didn’t impact me the same way. It wasn’t about my self-worth. It was that I have spent a lot of time and money learning how to be a lawyer, and that’s a skill I can transfer to many things. So let me accept that I’m good at it, but it doesn’t tell the whole story of who I am. If you like me, great; if not, whatever. That’s fine. There are plenty of people who aren’t going to like me, but I’m not going to be one of them.

Coach Jody: I love the interplay between freedom and acceptance—freedom and surrender. For me, what’s coming up is how the message is going to be received. That’s the part out of my control: I don’t know that person’s life experience or motives or intentions. But the freedom comes in how I want to be in that situation. That’s where the surrender or acceptance, or less fear and anxiety, comes from: “Great, I’m in charge of that, so how do I want to show up in this encounter?” There’s a sense of no struggle there, whereas if I focus on “What are they thinking of me?” I feel an energy of struggle—like I’m trying to get my message across or be seen or have them follow me. But when we think instead, “How am I showing up? What do I control?” and surrender the rest, that’s the freedom.

Sari de la Motte: Right, stepping into ease. Sara?

Sara Williams: Yeah, I don’t know that everybody does understand that they can’t control perception, because so many of us are socialized to feel like we can. Think about it: as young girls, if you dress this way or speak this way or style your hair this way, that’s how you control someone’s perception. Especially for Black women—if you wear your hair straight, that appears more corporate. If you get passionate, you might be perceived as an angry Black woman. So you think it’s you controlling how you’re perceived, because those are the messages you receive. That’s one reason why stepping down from managing, I want to tackle these issues publicly, because that releases people and gives them permission. I had a law student come up to me after a presentation and ask if she could try a case competition with her puff, and I almost cried, because I’d made my daughter straighten her hair for events. She asked, “If someone says something about my puff, can I talk to you?” I said, “Hell yeah,” because if I had told her no, we’d just feed the message that you can’t be you.

So yeah, some people think they can control perception, but I think it’s from socialization.

Sari de la Motte: Right. Because if you do all the “right” things, you’ll get the “right” outcome. But that’s an illusion. Even if you do all the right things, you can still lose. We often come back to the same question: “What could I have done to avoid that outcome?” But we want what we think we’ll feel if we get that big verdict or if we get that acceptance, right? So how do we let go of that need to control everything—especially how people perceive us—and find freedom? I’d love each of you to give your best tip.

Coach Siria Gutierrez: For me, it’s integration: show up as your full self. Stop having Lawyer Siria, Fun Siria, etc. Show up all at once. That’s made the biggest difference in my own self-acceptance and self-worth. Full integration would be my recommendation.

Sari de la Motte: Love it.

Coach Jody: I use affirmations, journaling, prompts, and self-talk. But one thing I do actively is remind myself,

“It’s not about me.”

If a situation is triggering or emotional, I step back and ask, “Is this about me?” Maybe sometimes it is, but at least I’m aware. “Why is this situation so explosive? Why is it emotional? What’s being triggered?” I get curious. If it’s about that person’s own baggage, I’m not controlling their reaction, so it’s not about me.

Sari de la Motte: Absolutely. Sara?

Sara Williams: I think it takes work. We, as lawyers, need to talk more about therapy and mindset, because lawyering is more than knowing how to question a witness or structure an opening. To be more effective, you have to understand who you really are and get control of your mindset. That’s what I love about H2H. If we’re going to change the culture, we have to challenge ourselves to break free of that old-school path and really do the deep work, which makes us better advocates for our clients.

Sari de la Motte: Rick Friedman says “Trial work is personal work,” right? It forces you to look at your shit. Thank you all for being here and talking about this important topic. If you want to see more of Coach Jody or Coach Siria, you need to join the Crew because they’re in there, being awesome. Sara is also in there as an H2H Crew member. But Sara, where can people watch your videos or find you?

Sara Williams: They can follow me on Instagram at “SaraWilliamsESQ”—Sara with no H—on Facebook as Sara Williams, or on YouTube as well.

Sari de la Motte: And you have your own website, too, right?

Sara Williams: Yes, SaraWilliamsESQ.com.

Sari de la Motte: Definitely follow her, folks. She’s awesome sauce. Thank you all for being here. I hope this was helpful. Talk soon.